A Canadian Soccer Revolution

[Cashcleaner]

Hey all! Just wanted to share this post from the RPB forums because it applies to ALL Canadian soccer fans. I hope I'm not just echoing the same subject ad naseum here, but wanted to share our thoughts with your group and the future of our sport.

Now, I'm the first to admit that some of my forum posts can, from time to time, come off as a little melodramatic or impassioned. That said, I hope you can bear with me yet again as I try to adequately put my thoughts into order without resorting to unnecesary digression.

So I digress...

With the renewed talk of a possible DP signing for Toronto, and the varying speculation surrounding a possible Open-Cup competition between Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver; a greater sense of optimism towards the sport of soccer seem to be taking place across Canada. In many ways the fans and players of our beloved sport are taking it upon themselves to promote and spread the word of the sport throughout the country - regardless of the condition and general malaise of our national soccer program. Despite the indifference of the CSA, we're all making substantial contributions towards the proper promotion of soccer on all levels - amateur and recreational, all the way to the professional tiers of the USL and MLS.

There is no better way to say it, and I cannot stress the point enough: We are at the forefront of a soccer revolution in this country.

It takes a lot for me to commit those words for your consumption and have total confidence in that point-of-view. The fact is that I can no long deny that a new and fresh attitude is permeating throughout not just our group, but also through the supporters of the Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps, and our Men's and Women's National teams. This positve vibe just keeps building and building, with every internet forum post, newspaper article, or television feature. Soccer is on it's way up.

For me, what's most impressive is our unified front as supporters. The fact that fans here in Toronto are clamouring alongside those in other cities for more MLS franchise consideration is something to acknowledge - especially given the regional rivalries that are prevelent in this country. Even our shared frustrations towards the CSA shows that we can make a positive out of a negative. Canadians from all over have expressed their vocal solidarity with regards to reforming the national program.

When all is said and done, it looks like Canadian soccer fans are going to ensure this sport prospers in our nation, despite the obstacles in our path. We are proving here in Toronto that we will not only pay to see top-tier soccer, but we will create an exciting and energetic atmosphere doing so. The same is slowly happening across the rest of the MLS and we are undoubtably making waves in the Canadian USL circles as well.

I kid you not - Soccer Revolution.

[penz]

We are proving here in Toronto that we will not only pay to see top-tier soccer, but we will create an exciting and energetic atmosphere doing so. The same is slowly happening across the rest of the MLS and we are undoubtably making waves in the Canadian USL circles as well.

Once again, Toronto leads the pack... What would we do without them?

Oh, by the way, you are between 5 and 10 years behind everybody on this one.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I'm certainly not trying to disparage the Impact (or the Whitecaps for that matter), but to be honest, I have yet to see a live match anywhere else that rivals the atmosphere created at a TFC match. And that's saying something for a person who once regularly attended EPL and SPL matches a few years back.

The point of the post was never to come across as: "Toronto soccer is the greatest and everyone else needs to get their act together".

It's more like: "I love what we're doing here in Toronto with the MLS. Let's get EVERYONE in on the whole thing".

[penz]

I'm just saying people have been working on trying to create a football atmosphere for ages here and in the MLS. Don't tell me TFC inspired Chicago or DC... or Montreal, for that matter. So, saying something that basically comes across as if you were leading some kind of revolution really is full of it. Get your facts straight. People have been doing this long before you, both in the US and in Canada, and even in Toronto (you should know that), even though in recent years the U-Sector was a joke more than anything.

The thing is, Toronto enjoys the buzz created by the MLS. The Ultras Montréal have been around since 2002 and can never hope to attain the levels the TFC supporters group have attained if the Impact doesn't make it to the MLS. It surely is annoying to see someone from Toronto come here to tell us to "get in on the whole thing" when we've been working our asses off for five years, doing what we do at the best of our ability...

Toronto is not the center of the universe, you know.

[3kuyt]

The Impact has been around for 15 years and the Whitecaps are the oldest franchise in canadian profesional soccer history. Both cities wanted to be part of the MLS well before the Toronto FC showed up. To an extent its quite insulting to see Toronto awarded an MLS franchise ahead of established clubs in Montreal and Vancouver.

Toronto FC's veto as the only Canadian team in the MLS till 2010, doesn't help the causes of Montreal and Vancouver.

Before the construction of BMO field, the new privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the Canadian national team, but the city of Toronto wasn't gonna let Montreal run away with that opportunity so, they publicly-funded BMO field, which became home to the national team.

During the world cup under-20 tournament, Toronto hosted a semi-final game and the final game, whereas the best game that Montreal got was a quarter final. Can you explain to me, why our stadium which is more then twice the size of BMO field was not allocated at least a semi-final game?

I can see why your excited about whats happening for soccer in Toronto, but can't you see that Toronto's success is comming at the expenses of other Canadian cities?

[xdukex]

The thing I will never get is.. how come you replace a losing team with another losing team...

People should have stuck with the Lynx, tickets were way cheaper and at least they were able to score a goal once in a while.

But seriously, not a sort of interest was shown for the Lynx and now the guys are gone buck wild about TFC... probably because they have this veto on MLS in Canada.

They will have shit their pants by 2010 anyway...

+ half the crowd will turn the TFC down when NFL comes in...

[CrazyKeeper]

The Impact has been around for 15 years and the Whitecaps are the oldest franchise in canadian profesional soccer history. Both cities wanted to be part of the MLS well before the Toronto FC showed up. To an extent its quite insulting to see Toronto awarded an MLS franchise ahead of established clubs in Montreal and Vancouver.

Toronto FC's veto as the only Canadian team in the MLS till 2010, doesn't help the causes of Montreal and Vancouver.

Before the construction of BMO field, the new privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the Canadian national team, but the city of Toronto wasn't gonna let Montreal run away with that opportunity so, they publicly-funded BMO field, which became home to the national team.

During the world cup under-20 tournament, Toronto hosted a semi-final game and the final game, whereas the best game that Montreal got was a quarter final. Can you explain to me, why our stadium which is more then twice the size of BMO field was not allocated at least a semi-final game?
I can see why your excited about whats happening for soccer in Toronto, but can't you see that Toronto's success is comming at the expenses of other Canadian cities?

This has been discussed milions of times and it shows that a lot of people don't know what they are talking about.

Montreal decided after the final and semi-finals were awarded to Toronto and Edmonton to use the Olympic Stadium. So when FIFA and the CSA took that decision, MTL wasn't sure yet about which venue, CCR or Olympic Stadium, would be use....It's MTL fault if this happened.

As for your last paragraph, I think that if pro soccer is to be succesfull in this country, it has to be successfull in it's biggest market and that's Toronto. I think it's a good thing it's working well with TFC and now Saputo and Kerfoot can look to enter the league. Again if Saputo wanted to entered the MLS he just had to make a move 3-4 years ago but he wasn't sure and has always sounds reticent about the idea. Now that MLSE has taken the risk Saputo sounds more proactive about the project.

BTW, you have to be ultra defensive to take the first message as a "Toronto is the center of the universe" type message. With quote like theses I have a hard time figuring why you have to take the Toronto bashing stance once again:

greater sense of optimism towards the sport of soccer seem to be taking place across Canada.

The fact is that I can no long deny that a new and fresh attitude is permeating throughout not just our group, but also through the supporters of the Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps, and our Men's and Women's National teams.This positve vibe just keeps building and building, with every internet forum post, newspaper article, or television feature. Soccer is on it's way up.


When all is said and done, it looks like Canadian soccer fans are going to ensure this sport prospers in our nation, despite the obstacles in our path.

Maybe his last sentence isn't well written and can be perceived on it's wrong side but you just can't ignore the rest of the message.

[penz]

There you are, always searching for tiny details to screw me over with, instead of looking at what is obvious :

We are proving here in Toronto that we will not only pay to see top-tier soccer, but we will create an exciting and energetic atmosphere doing so. The same is slowly happening across the rest of the MLS and we are undoubtably making waves in the Canadian USL circles as well.

To me, that is just bullshit all the way through. We've been proving we're willing to pay to see top-tier soccer (and even levels below that), while "creating an exciting and energetic atmosphere" for FIVE YEARS. People have been doing that in the MLS for TEN YEARS already. But then, all of a sudden, Toronto comes out of the blue, invents everything and everyone should just "hop in"...

The guy can come here and throw us flowers all he wants... but the fact is, he wants everyone to "do like Toronto". That's what he's saying and he's even repeated it using different words. If you can't see that, you're either blind or your English is shit.

Here : "I love what we're ding here in Toronto with the MLS. Let's get EVERYONE in on the whole thing".

The fact remains that Toronto is doing like everyone else and not the other way around. They're doing it more successfully than the other Canadian sides, because of the hype surrounding the MLS, which brings them tons of people. But as far as I know, Vancouver and Montreal were doing it well before them, not to mention DC, Chicago and the likes in MLS. It's not surprising, when you see an attitude like this one, that everyone is starting to hate Toronto in the MLS...

[CrazyKeeper]

There you are, always searching for tiny details to screw me over with, instead of looking at what is obvious :

We are proving here in Toronto that we will not only pay to see top-tier soccer, but we will create an exciting and energetic atmosphere doing so. The same is slowly happening across the rest of the MLS and we are undoubtably making waves in the Canadian USL circles as well.

To me, that is just bullshit all the way through. We've been proving we're willing to pay to see top-tier soccer (and even levels below that), while "creating an exciting and energetic atmosphere" for FIVE YEARS. People have been doing that in the MLS for TEN YEARS already. But then, all of a sudden, Toronto comes out of the blue, invents everything and everyone should just "hop in"...

The guy can come here and throw us flowers all he wants... but the fact is, he wants everyone to "do like Toronto". That's what he's saying and he's even repeated it using different words. If you can't see that, you're either blind or your English is shit.

Here : "I love what we're ding here in Toronto with the MLS. Let's get EVERYONE in on the whole thing".

The fact remains that Toronto is doing like everyone else and not the other way around. They're doing it more successfully than the other Canadian sides, because of the hype surrounding the MLS, which brings them tons of people. But as far as I know, Vancouver and Montreal were doing it well before them, not to mention DC, Chicago and the likes in MLS. It's not surprising, when you see an attitude like this one, that everyone is starting to hate Toronto in the MLS...

From what I've read in soccer forum, people in the US are impress with the TFC crowds. I'm sure you can find some jealous posters but my feeling it that most of the comments are positive about Toronto.

Like I've said, maybe the sentence you've quoted can sound a bit arrogant (I'm not even sure about what he really meant by it, I can read it with different meaning, specially the part about USL, I believe he's talking about the MLS interest among canadians fans in forums like this one. Just a year ago you Mpenze weren,t pro MLS like you are today and I would believe TFC helped your perception) but you can't ignore the rest of his message. No need to get defensive for that.

BTW, you were 3 to post on this thread and my message wasn't directed to you. It's the whole anti-Toronto stuff that I find a bit repetitive on this board.

[penz]

Whatever.

[3kuyt]

As for your last paragraph, I think that if pro soccer is to be succesfull in this country, it has to be successfull in it's biggest market and that's Toronto.

Thats exactly my point, Toronto should stop thinking that the other Canadian cities are dependant of it if they want success. Montreal and Vancouver are doing much better in the USL, then Toronto ever did. Our success has nothing to do with the Lynx or TFC.

The only thing the TFC has done for Vancouver and Montreal is create more obstacles or taken away opportunities from them.

[CrazyKeeper]

As for your last paragraph, I think that if pro soccer is to be succesfull in this country, it has to be successfull in it's biggest market and that's Toronto.

Thats exactly my point, Toronto should stop thinking that the other other Canadian cities are dependant of it if they want success. Montreal and Vancouver are doing much better in the USL, then Toronto ever did. Our success has nothing to do with the Lynx or TFC.

The only thing the TFC has done for Vancouver and Montreal is to create more obstacles or taken away opportunities from them.

No, MTL and Vancouver had to take their opportunities when they had it. Before showing interest to the MLS, both MTL and Vancouver needed TFC to get int he league to see how it went. MTL and Van were afraid while MLSE wasn't. That's ok with me, but don't tell us that Saputo would've got MTL to the MLS this year or next if it wasn't for TFC clause.

TFC success in the stands and as an organization is one the reason why MTL and Vancouver are looking more seriously at entering the league.

And let me tell you that it would be good business for MLSE if they allow MTL and Vancouver to enter the league ASAP. Their first year success is showing they don't need to protect themselves against thew arrival of a canadian team. They would be the winner because of all thecanadian regional rivalries.

[penz]

Saputo doesn't have a history of screaming what's what at every street corner. First example that comes to mind is the current situation with the MLS, where the Impact is supposedly waiting for the MLS to make a move, when in the end, it is obvious there is way more than that going on behind the scenes.

So he wasn't interested in the MLS.... how can you be sure about that? If he wasn't all that interested, he wouldn't have snapped at the CSA when they gave TFC the exclusivity until 2010...

[3kuyt]

Your contradicting yourself, first you say that we shouldn't view this situation as "Toronto is the center of the universe", but afterwards you continously say that Montreal and Vancouver need the TFC to enter the MLS. Thats a pretty arrogant statement to stay that we needed the TFC to get into the league.

We'll never be able to know if Montreal could have entered the MLS this year or next, cause of the clause. Which is very considerate on the behalf of Toronto. Meanwhile, the MLS is expanding towards other cities without being able to consider Montreal or Vancouver. What happens now, Montreal and Vancouver rots in the USL, while Toronto gets fat in the MLS.

[xdukex]

We all know Toronto would be 3rd behind Montreal and Vancouver... that's why they're all excited about being alone in the MLS for now. They have time to establish themselves...

They already call on us like we owe them something for being the first canadian team in MLS.

[CrazyKeeper]

Saputo doesn't have a history of screaming what's what at every street corner. First example that comes to mind is the current situation with the MLS, where the Impact is supposedly waiting for the MLS to make a move, when in the end, it is obvious there is way more than that going on behind the scenes.

So he wasn't interested in the MLS.... how can you be sure about that? If he wasn't all that interested, he wouldn't have snapped at the CSA when they gave TFC the exclusivity until 2010...

Isn't the exclusivity clause in a contract between MLS and MLSE??? It's legally impossible for the CSA to contract such a clause.

Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. You don't make a statement like that if you're interested in joining the league. Now he sounds more interested, and that's OK.

Kuyt: You are deforming what I'm saying, you have to be able to distinguish different opinions about different subjects. My point is it looks like MTL and Vancouver are showing interest in MLS now that they saw TFC success at the gates. And by looking at previous statements by Mr Saputo, it didn't appear like he was planning to make a bid for a team in the MLS.

As for the clause, I'm telling you again that TFC can cancel it whenever they want, so if Vancouver and MTL want to join the MLS, they can lift it up. I'm pretty sure it has already been discussed between MLSE and Saputo/Kerfoot if one of those 2 plan to join the league before 2010.

[penz]

Kuyt: You are deforming what I'm saying, you have to be able to distinguish different opinions about different subjects.

Holy crap, look who's talking...

[CrazyKeeper]

Kuyt: You are deforming what I'm saying, you have to be able to distinguish different opinions about different subjects.

Holy crap, look who's talking...

Well, look who's talking now....we can play that game as long as you want but I prefer staying on subject here.

So Mpenza, can you explain to me how the CSA is responsible about an exclusivity clause in a contract between MLS and MLSE? I just don't get it.

[penz]

Responsible for letting it happen.
You know full well the MLSE bid was strongly backed by the CSA who desperately needed a stadium for the world cup and was ready to let anything go (which they did).
Stop playing your game, it's annoying. I really don't know what I ever did to you, but please find another target.

[3kuyt]

Why would the TFC cancel the clause, when it currently has exclusivity on the revenue from canadian broadcasters?

[CrazyKeeper]

Responsible for letting it happen.
You know full well the MLSE bid was strongly backed by the CSA who desperately needed a stadium for the world cup and was ready to let anything go (which they did).
Stop playing your game, it's annoying. I really don't know what I ever did to you, but please find another target.

Stop crying like a little girl.

You're the one who's claiming the CSA had something to do with a contract clause between 2 other parties. Maybe the CSA backed MLSE by helping for the stadium but how in the world did they intervene in that contract or were suppose to not let that happen? At least give us proof of the CSA intervention in the contract or tell us how they can intervene in a private contract between two entities.

If you're to make a claim as serious as this one, showing that you don't have a minimal business/law knowledge, you should just not be making it. That's a pretty crazy accusation you've made toward the CSA and according to your standards you should be backing it with proofs.

[CrazyKeeper]

Why would the TFC cancel the clause, when it currently has exclusivity on the revenue from canadian broadcasters?

The TV revenues will increase if the number of teams increase, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, maybe MTL will sign it's own agreement with Radio-Canada/RDS and the same could happen with Vancouver with TSN for example.

[penz]

Yes, you're right, CK.

[3kuyt]

Why would the TFC cancel the clause, when it currently has exclusivity on the revenue from canadian broadcasters?

The TV revenues will increase if the number of teams increase, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, maybe MTL will sign it's own agreement with Radio-Canada/RDS and the same could happen with Vancouver with TSN for example.

Maybe MTL may sign a contract with RDS, but why would TSN get an exclusive contract with Vancouver? Can Radio-Canada afford to pay television rights for the MLS? More teams in Canada does not necessariy mean more games televised, especially if they are scheduled on the same day.

TFC has a monopoly in Canadian division 1 soccer until 2010 and I don't see them giving up that priviledge

[CrazyKeeper]

Why would the TFC cancel the clause, when it currently has exclusivity on the revenue from canadian broadcasters?

The TV revenues will increase if the number of teams increase, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, maybe MTL will sign it's own agreement with Radio-Canada/RDS and the same could happen with Vancouver with TSN for example.

Maybe MTL may sign a contract with RDS, but why would TSN get an exclusive contract with Vancouver? Can Radio-Canada afford to pay television rights for the MLS? More teams in Canada does not necessariy mean more games televised, especially if they are scheduled on the same day.

TFC has a monopoly in Canadian division 1 soccer until 2010 and I don't see them giving up that priviledge

It's call negotiation. So, MTL as a french city should be able to negotiate something with Radio-Canada and maybe RDS and have most of their games televised. The same apply for Vancouver and some locals network or even TSN (it's just a suggestion).

TFC have already their own broadcasting deal, so if MTL enters the MLS tomorrow with their own TV deal with RDS (an example) it will have no impact on the TFC TV deal. Do you understand that? So, that's not a reason for TFC to keep the exclusivity deal alive.