A Canadian Soccer Revolution

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 16:44

Ive quoted two articles that clearly state that its the CSA that has given the exclusivity rights to the TFC. Wether you want to believe them or not its your choice. Im quite aware of the different roles of the MLS, the CSA and the USSF. You would be suprised to see how many decisions are made by the CSA and USSF in regards to the MLS. Are you even aware that the MLS is controlled by the USSF?

"Mais surtout, la nouvelle organisation torontoise aurait obtenu une exclusivité sur le territoire canadien auprès de l'association canadienne."

That quote means that the CSA gave exclusivity to Toronto.

"In addition, Saputo said the CSA has given MLSE exclusive rights to hold major international soccer events, which ultimately would leave Montreal, Vancouver and Edmonton out in the cold."

This quote means, that Montreal lost the opportunity of hosting the canadian national team.

MegasAlexandros · Message par **MegasAlexandros** » 30 octobre 2007 23:18

3kuyt a écrit :
"Mais surtout, la nouvelle organisation torontoise aurait obtenu une exclusivité sur le territoire canadien auprès de l'association canadienne."

That quote means that the CSA gave exclusivity to Toronto.

Allow me to explain some of the finer points of verb conjugation in french. It is written "aurait obtenu" NOT "a obtenu" which means that the author of said article is speculating, he is not stating a fact. And as someone else posted, if it's from RDS.ca and it regards soccer, then I wouldn't be so surprised that the information is inacurate.

"In addition, Saputo said the CSA has given MLSE exclusive rights to hold major international soccer events, which ultimately would leave Montreal, Vancouver and Edmonton out in the cold."

This quote means, that Montreal lost the opportunity of hosting the canadian national team.

I've already explained my view on this part, which initially you used to talk about TFC's exclusivity in Canada, and have now changed your stance to it's real meaning.

You're skating on thin ice my friend.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 0:33

Thanks Pericles.

So we started with MTL as the "Home" of our NT and now it's "MTL lost the opportunity at hosting international event".

I guess our U-20's friendlies played in Victoria, Vancouver, Ottawa and Edmonton before the tournament were all played in Toronto.....Yes Toronto has the priority for NT games but like the U-20's firendlies example is showing, other cities are able to receive games as well. Also, there was talks about a possible CanadaMNT game at the Big O. Ok, it didn't work but It's proving that games can be played elsewhere.

As for the exclusivity clause, I've asked some TFC fans about it and they said it was between MLS and TFC. I would like to read english newspaper articles about it (from Toronto or the USA) as they might be more precise on that. I know a lot of people have assimilate MLS and the CSA but as I said, the CSA cannot interfere in MLS business.

penz · Message par **penz** » 31 octobre 2007 0:46

Frankly, I did some research and couldn't find anything about that exclusivity deal anywhere. All you can find is fans talking about the so-called exclusivity deal...

I'm starting to wonder... Seeing how that RDS article (dated October 25, 2005) seems to be taking Saputo's word about an unexplained exclusivity deal and how Saputo later on (October 26, 2005, second article dug up by kuyt) says how it is an exclusive deal about international events...

We need to dig up something concrete that lead us to believe there is an exclusivity deal between MLS and Toronto about Canadian franchises in the MLS. And if we can't, we might have to reconsider. Frankly, I don't remember what I read 2 years ago. I'm under the impression that, yes, something about that deal indeed was revealed, but I'm really starting to wonder if the said deal ever existed or if it's just a big misunderstanding right off the bat that turned into a huge monster of an urban legend...

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 1:01

Mpenza a écrit :Frankly, I did some research and couldn't find anything about that exclusivity deal anywhere. All you can find is fans talking about the so-called exclusivity deal...

I'm starting to wonder... Seeing how that RDS article (dated October 25, 2005) seems to be taking Saputo's word about an unexplained exclusivity deal and how Saputo later on (October 26, 2005, second article dug up by kuyt) says how it is an exclusive deal about international events...

We need to dig up something concrete that lead us to believe there is an exclusivity deal between MLS and Toronto about Canadian franchises in the MLS. And if we can't, we might have to reconsider. Frankly, I don't remember what I read 2 years ago. I'm under the impression that, yes, something about that deal indeed was revealed, but I'm really starting to wonder if the said deal ever existed or if it's just a big misunderstanding right off the bat that turned into a huge monster of an urban legend...

TFC fans, who usually are pretty well informed by their club, are saying that TFC has an exclusivity deal with MLS. In business, those kinds of deal are signed everyday, so I wouldn't be surprise if their was one. But what I,m also saying is it shouldn't be a big problem for MTL or Vancouver to have it's effect cancel or to negotiate something with MLS/TFC if they're serious about getting a team.

Cashcleaner · Message par **Cashcleaner** » 31 octobre 2007 1:07

Mpenza a écrit : Oh don't worry, the rivalry existed long before you came here to slap your MLS expertise in our faces.

Ohhhhh, so you're saying I'm an expert then?

Kidding aside, I think can fill you guys in on some details.

Firstly, there IS an exclusivity clause for Toronto FC to be the only Canadian franchise until after 2010. I've been told this by members of the TFC staff, and have no reason to dispute their remarks. That said, I have been told that the club can waive that clause at anytime, so it is theoretically possible to have Montreal/Vancouver brought into the league sooner. Now despite what some may think, the reason for the clause is to give the Canadian talent pool some time to build-up and prepare players for entry into the North American league. At the moment, we're struggling for enough as it is for home-grown players that can play at the level of MLS and who want to stay in Canada.

As for the status of the National Soccer Stadium, I'm actually a big critic of using public funds to build such things as soccer stadiums. I think it's kinda shitty (can I say that on these forums?) that the taxpayer has to foot the bill because Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment says they'll only pay for a team if they get the stadium for free. So yeah, you'll get no argument from me over how that deal went. I mean, if operating a professional sports team is so lucrative and good for the city, why not pay for it all yourself and reap the rewards? But I digress,

As for Saputo Stadium being a possible National Team venue, I haven't heard anything like that before today, but it doesn't sound like too much of a stretch. All said, I have a feeling about something... What if BMO Field, Stade Saputo, and the new Whitecaps stadium all become recgonized as National Soccer StadiumS? - Emphasis on the "S".

Maybe we'll see a rotation between the 3 cities for the Mens and Womens teams - given the fact that they are all soccer-specific (they ARE, aren't they?), it doesn't sound so crazy.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Hope the info helps.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 9:01

"So if I'm building my stadium on the eventuality of bringing in the national team or having a national program, that's what I have to reconsider."

What don't you understand of this? For me its quite clear that Saputo had the intention of having the national team play in Montreal.

Before you make any other comments how about you back them up with some sources.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 9:06

Montreal Impact president Joey Saputo says his United Soccer Leagues club is reconsidering its commitment to building a soccer-specific stadium in Montreal for the 2007 FIFA world youth championships. Saputo said that plans for a $15-million 13,500-seat downtown stadium may be put on hold after Canadian Soccer Association officials gave their blessing to a Major League Soccer expansion franchise for Toronto.
-- The Globe and Mail

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 9:39

What you are quoting is clearly indicating that the CSA never had the intention to establish MTL as the home of our NT.....it's indicating that Saputo had the intention of bringing the team to play games there which is different from your original claim that MTL was supposed to be the "Home" of our NT.

People in St John's, Newfounland, when they enhanced King George V Stadium had the intention to host NT games as well (and they did with the women's last year and our U-16 NT this fall) does that mean that St-John's would've been the "Home" of our NT???

Your logic is pretty weak and as I've showed with facts (U-20 friendlies being played in 4 cities other than Toronto this year) it's possible for our National teams to play elsewhere in Canada.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 9:46

You clearly don't see the correlation between the CSA backing the TFC and Montreal losing an opportunity.

All youve done is dismiss what Ive said, without even backing uo any of your statements. Maybe, should do like you and just go aroudn the forum and criticise what other people say.

I was nice guy, you asked me for sources, ive found some and your acting like an ass. WHATS YOUR PROBLEM, DO YOU HAVE A CONFRONTATION DISORDER or SIMPLY A GOD LIKE COMPLEX?????????

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 10:01

3kuyt a écrit :You clearly don't see the correlation between the CSA backing the TFC and Montreal losing an opportunity.

All youve done is dismiss what Ive said, without even backing uo any of your statements. Maybe, should do like you and just go aroudn the forum and criticise what other people say.

I was nice guy, you asked me for sources, ive found some and your acting like an ass. WHATS YOUR PROBLEM, DO YOU HAVE A CONFRONTATION DISORDER or SIMPLY A GOD LIKE COMPLEX?????????

Backed my statements? Which one do you want me to back? That NT games were played in other cities than Toronto this year? That's common knowledge....

I've never denied Saputo intention to host a few MNT games, I've denied your claim for the "Home" stuff.

The first reason why I criticized you was the misinformation about the choice of the semi-finals host and then you go out saying MTL would've been the home of our MNT. Both of your statements were false, if you acknowledge that, that's fine.

Now your claiming Saputo lost an opportunity, I agree with that but I won't put all the blame on TFC and the CSA since I think Saputo has to accept a share of the blame.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 10:12

ITS NOT TRUE THAT SAPUTO WANTED TO HOST THE NATIONAL TEAM IN MONTREAL
ITS NOT TRUE THAT THE CSA PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF TFC WHICH IN RETURN CREATE OBSTACLES FOR VANCOUVER AND MONTREAL.

CRAZYKEEPER, YOU WHO HOLDS ALL OF THE WORLD'S TRUTHS

penz · Message par **penz** » 31 octobre 2007 10:20

3kuyt a écrit :"So if I'm building my stadium on the eventuality of bringing in the national team or having a national program, that's what I have to reconsider."

"Bringing in the National Team" : for games or...??? Too vague to call.

"or a national PROGRAM" : What would a national program be other than having a (national) team based here? Be it the MNT or the WNT...

Crazykeeper, answer the question about the national program with a clear, short and simple answer, please. What's a national program for you?

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 10:40

Mpenza a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :"So if I'm building my stadium on the eventuality of bringing in the national team or having a national program, that's what I have to reconsider."
"Bringing in the National Team" : for games or...??? Too vague to call.

"or a national PROGRAM" : What would a national program be other than having a (national) team based here? Be it the MNT or the WNT...

Crazykeeper, answer the question about the national program with a clear, short and simple answer, please. What's a national program for you?

A national program would be any of our National teams, men or women, U-16 to Senior. Any of those teams can be referred to a "program".

This could also be a reference to a NTC (National Training Centre) but I doubt it.

MNT based in MTL??? How can that be? The WNT maybe but the Men's it just doesn't work with our players spread out across the world. Residency is impossible for the men.

BTW, I've never denied that Saputo wanted to host games, but saying that MTL was supposed to be the "Home" of our programs needs at least the CSA approval....

The best case scenario for canadian soccer is more stadiums like Saputo and BMO so the CSA can assign each one to a particular youth team and maybe establish some residency program like they have in the US.

penz · Message par **penz** » 31 octobre 2007 10:59

Well, if it was in the works, but that it was cut short because of the sudden interest of Toronto in soccer, it counts. Maybe the MNT was tired of going all the way from Europe to Vancouver to play games. Maybe Montreal was a choice destination, with that new stadium and all. And then, T.O. jumped in...

You usually don't announce something and then start working on it. That's not how it goes (except of course for the whole MLS in Toronto thing). But if Saputo was working behind the scenes to get the MNT to play the vast majority of its qualifiers here and had the backing of members of the CSA but that it was all thrown to hell without even talking to him about it, maybe it was juust in the works and not public, until Saputo talked about it in the press.

Big maybes i know, but apparently, there was something going on with the CSA and Saputo Stadium and the CSA apparently backed down on it. You can't deny that. And I doubt it had to do with anything other than the MNT.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 11:07

Mpenza a écrit :Well, if it was in the works, but that it was cut short because of the sudden interest of Toronto in soccer, it counts. Maybe the MNT was tired of going all the way from Europe to Vancouver to play games. Maybe Montreal was a choice destination, with that new stadium and all. And then, T.O. jumped in...

You usually don't announce something and then start working on it. That's not how it goes (except of course for the whole MLS in Toronto thing). But if Saputo was working behind the scenes to get the MNT to play the vast majority of its qualifiers here and had the backing of members of the CSA but that it was all thrown to hell without even talking to him about it, maybe it was juust in the works and not public, until Saputo talked about it in the press.

Big maybes i know, but apparently, there was something going on with the CSA and Saputo Stadium and the CSA apparently backed down on it. You can't deny that. And I doubt it had to do with anything other than the MNT.

Well, we could also speculate the CSA tried to convince Saputo to enter the MLS and told him they would help him with his stadium only if he goes the MLS way.....Saputo refused, the CSA turned to MLSE and thinks it's better to invest there than in the USL....

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 11:21

CrazyKeeper a écrit :
Mpenza a écrit :Well, if it was in the works, but that it was cut short because of the sudden interest of Toronto in soccer, it counts. Maybe the MNT was tired of going all the way from Europe to Vancouver to play games. Maybe Montreal was a choice destination, with that new stadium and all. And then, T.O. jumped in...

You usually don't announce something and then start working on it. That's not how it goes (except of course for the whole MLS in Toronto thing). But if Saputo was working behind the scenes to get the MNT to play the vast majority of its qualifiers here and had the backing of members of the CSA but that it was all thrown to hell without even talking to him about it, maybe it was juust in the works and not public, until Saputo talked about it in the press.

Big maybes i know, but apparently, there was something going on with the CSA and Saputo Stadium and the CSA apparently backed down on it. You can't deny that. And I doubt it had to do with anything other than the MNT.
Well, we could also speculate the CSA tried to convince Saputo to enter the MLS and told him they would help him with his stadium only if he goes the MLS way.....Saputo refused, the CSA turned to MLSE and thinks it's better to invest there than in the USL....

Can you back up your statement with sources, since in the sources I quoted (which you obviously did not read), Saputo said

"Si un jour, trois équipes canadiennes peuvent faire leur entrée en même temps dans la MLS, et qu'elles peuvent le faire à rabais parce qu'elles sont trois, peut-être que le moment sera venu pour nous d'y faire le saut."

This clearly demonstrate that Saputo was not against joining the MLS, as you've previously mentionned, but he was rather looking to obtain a better deal to join the MLS.

CRAZYKEEPER: "Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. You don't make a statement like that if you're interested in joining the league."

Do you have a source of that quote?

penz · Message par **penz** » 31 octobre 2007 11:30

CrazyKeeper a écrit :Well, we could also speculate the CSA tried to convince Saputo to enter the MLS and told him they would help him with his stadium only if he goes the MLS way.....Saputo refused, the CSA turned to MLSE and thinks it's better to invest there than in the USL....

Yeah... except for the fact that no one ever talked about it, while Saputo clearly mentioned the stadium was built counting on the possibility of having a national program here in Montreal and said the total capacity of the stadium might need to be reduced after the CSA gave exclusity to Toronto.

I don't see how the WNT or the youth teams would need a stadium with 3000 more seats. He had to be talking about the MNT and nothing else.

Can you at least recognize what he said? I mean, if anyone must know what's going on between the CSA and the Impact, it has to be Saputo...

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 11:38

3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :
Mpenza a écrit :Well, if it was in the works, but that it was cut short because of the sudden interest of Toronto in soccer, it counts. Maybe the MNT was tired of going all the way from Europe to Vancouver to play games. Maybe Montreal was a choice destination, with that new stadium and all. And then, T.O. jumped in...

You usually don't announce something and then start working on it. That's not how it goes (except of course for the whole MLS in Toronto thing). But if Saputo was working behind the scenes to get the MNT to play the vast majority of its qualifiers here and had the backing of members of the CSA but that it was all thrown to hell without even talking to him about it, maybe it was juust in the works and not public, until Saputo talked about it in the press.

Big maybes i know, but apparently, there was something going on with the CSA and Saputo Stadium and the CSA apparently backed down on it. You can't deny that. And I doubt it had to do with anything other than the MNT.
Well, we could also speculate the CSA tried to convince Saputo to enter the MLS and told him they would help him with his stadium only if he goes the MLS way.....Saputo refused, the CSA turned to MLSE and thinks it's better to invest there than in the USL....
Can you back up your statement with sources, since in the sources I quoted (which you obviously did not read), Saputo said

"Si un jour, trois équipes canadiennes peuvent faire leur entrée en même temps dans la MLS, et qu'elles peuvent le faire à rabais parce qu'elles sont trois, peut-être que le moment sera venu pour nous d'y faire le saut."

This clearly demonstrate that Saputo was not against joining the MLS, as you've previously mentionned, but he was rather looking to obtain a better deal to join the MLS.

CRAZYKEEPER: "Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. You don't make a statement like that if you're interested in joining the league."

Do you have a source of that quote?

You can find one negative quote in the article posted in this thread:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/to ... Saputo,MLS

Here's another interesting quote coming from this thread (http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/to ... Saputo,MLS) and a translation of this article:

http://www.rds.ca/impact/chroniques/233131.html (I can't read it and can't acklowedge if the translation is right but I think it was made by Daniel).

"Saputo repeated several time that he had changed his mind about MLS and that every doors were open now that the league was leaving individual team owners act more freely instead of trying to administer everything from the league's offices. However, Saputo reminded people that the Toronto franchise owned exclusive right over the Canadian market for the next 3 years."

et une dernière:

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007

L'Impact en route vers la MLS?

Jean-François Bégin

La Presse
«Dans le passé, je disais non à la MLS, parce que je n'aimais pas la structure de la ligue. Mais celle-ci est en train de changer et mon opinion change aussi», a indiqué Saputo.

Hope this help.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 11:44

Mpenza a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :Well, we could also speculate the CSA tried to convince Saputo to enter the MLS and told him they would help him with his stadium only if he goes the MLS way.....Saputo refused, the CSA turned to MLSE and thinks it's better to invest there than in the USL....
Yeah... except for the fact that no one ever talked about it, while Saputo clearly mentioned the stadium was built counting on the possibility of having a national program here in Montreal and said the total capacity of the stadium might need to be reduced after the CSA gave exclusity to Toronto.

I don't see how the WNT or the youth teams would need a stadium with 3000 more seats. He had to be talking about the MNT and nothing else.

Can you at least recognize what he said? I mean, if anyone must know what's going on between the CSA and the Impact, it has to be Saputo...

Of course I recognize that Saputo built his stadium thinking he would have some kind of National activities in there, that's just normal. But IMO the details of the talks that went on between the CSA and Saputo are pure speculations. Also, Saputo knew all along that Toronto would get a stadium sooner or later, he knew he would have to deal with that.

As for the Saputo and MLS stuff, what I've quoted in my previous message is pretty much the reason why I'm putting a PART (which means the CSA has to share some too) of the blame on Saputo shoulders. Without TFC success I don't think he would've changed his mind. To me, at first he looked afraid of jumping in alone but now isn't that reluctant.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 11:49

Actually, Ide prefer having a source with the original quote, since it might have been said before the TFC was awarded a franchise.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 11:53

3kuyt a écrit :Actually, Ide prefer having a source with the original quote, since it might have been said before the TFC was awarded a franchise.

That:

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007
L'Impact en route vers la MLS?
Jean-François Bégin

La Presse
«Dans le passé, je disais non à la MLS, parce que je n'aimais pas la structure de la ligue. Mais celle-ci est en train de changer et mon opinion change aussi», a indiqué Saputo.

is not enough to prove that:

"Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. "????

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 31 octobre 2007 11:57

CrazyKeeper a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :Actually, Ide prefer having a source with the original quote, since it might have been said before the TFC was awarded a franchise.
That:

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007
L'Impact en route vers la MLS?
Jean-François Bégin

La Presse
«Dans le passé, je disais non à la MLS, parce que je n'aimais pas la structure de la ligue. Mais celle-ci est en train de changer et mon opinion change aussi», a indiqué Saputo.

is not enough to prove that:

"Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. "????

No thats not good enough, since its two completly different situations if he was quoted before or after he had said....

"Si un jour, trois équipes canadiennes peuvent faire leur entrée en même temps dans la MLS, et qu'elles peuvent le faire à rabais parce qu'elles sont trois, peut-être que le moment sera venu pour nous d'y faire le saut."

penz · Message par **penz** » 31 octobre 2007 12:01

CrazyKeeper a écrit : Also, Saputo knew all along that Toronto would get a stadium sooner or later, he knew he would have to deal with that.

Yeah, he probably was counting on a stadium being built in Toronto, since it was the plan all along for the U-20 tournament. What he didn't plan on dealing with was a stadium that would suck everything related to the MNT towards T.O.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 31 octobre 2007 12:07

3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :Actually, Ide prefer having a source with the original quote, since it might have been said before the TFC was awarded a franchise.
That:

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007
L'Impact en route vers la MLS?
Jean-François Bégin

La Presse
«Dans le passé, je disais non à la MLS, parce que je n'aimais pas la structure de la ligue. Mais celle-ci est en train de changer et mon opinion change aussi», a indiqué Saputo.

is not enough to prove that:

"Saputo was quoted saying he didn't like the way the MLS operates and that he wasn't interested in joining it. "????
No thats not good enough, since its two completly different situations if he was quoted before or after he had said....

"Si un jour, trois équipes canadiennes peuvent faire leur entrée en même temps dans la MLS, et qu'elles peuvent le faire à rabais parce qu'elles sont trois, peut-être que le moment sera venu pour nous d'y faire le saut."

Look this thread is referring to comments made by Saputo in November 2006:

http://www.impactsoccer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6415